Gladden longevity — Episode #59

Steve Reiter: Welcome to the Gladden Longevity Podcast with Dr. Jeffrey Gladden, MD, FACC, Founder and CEO of Gladden Longevity. On this show, we want to answer three questions for you: How good can we be? How do we make 100 the new 30? And how do we live well beyond 120? We want to help you optimize your longevity, health, and human performance with impactful and actionable information. Now, here's today's episode of the Gladden Longevity Podcast.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Welcome, everybody, to this edition of the Gladden Longevity Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Jeffrey Gladden. And today, we are going to be talking about saunas, and infrared saunas in particular. I think most of you are familiar with all the great longevity data related to saunas. A lot of that data came out of dry saunas in Scandinavia, but there's also good data on infrared saunas, both in the past and also data that's emerging. So today, I have with me Connie Zack, and Connie Zack is the co-founder of a company called Sunlighten. And they make infrared saunas, and I've had an opportunity to try them at a couple of different meetings that I've been at, and was very impressed with the quality of construction and things like that, and invited Connie to come on the program here. So, Connie, welcome to Gladden Longevity.

Connie Zack: Thank you so much, Dr. Gladden, for having me.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Yeah, absolutely. You know, in looking at your situation, you were an executive with Procter & Gamble for quite a few years, it looks like. And then you kind of made the leap from there into the sauna business. Do you want to tell us a little bit about how you left corporate America to start making people sweat? If you were making people sweat at Procter & Gamble, I don't know.

Connie Zack: Maybe I was. Yeah, it's such a crazy story, because it's not like I was a young little girl and said like: "Gosh, someday I want to build infrared saunas." I was with P&G, and I was in the pharmaceutical division, so there is a little bit of a crossover there. One of my personal missions is always to leave the world in a healthier place and to make a significant difference, which is what I thought I was doing in pharmaceuticals at the time. I was working on gastrointestinal products and cardiovascular products, and my brother was terribly ill, chronically ill, and it-

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Tell us about that, what was going on for him? If you don't mind sharing.

Connie Zack: Yeah, no, happy to share. So, he had chronic fatigue, and fibromyalgia, and vertigo, couldn't go on any family vacations, he was really young. And he tried everything, and nothing worked. And it was his dentist in St. Louis that noticed his amalgam fillings, his mercury fillings in his mouth, and said: "Jason, I think that these are leaking, and I think that they have leaked over time, and I think you have something called ‘heavy metal toxicity’ in your body. And everything you're doing, it's really hard to get that out of your body." He had heard-

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Nice, that's a good pickup on his part. How old was your brother at that time? When you say he was young, was he like a teenager, in his 20s, or what?

Connie Zack: Yeah, yeah, the early 20s at most. And he listened to his doctor, and his doctor said: "I read some research from Asia about a level of energy called infrared, and there's some data showing that it can help remove toxic elements from the body, and I think you should give it a try." And so he did, and it changed his life, is really the short part of the story.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Did he get the amalgams taken out? Did his dentist take those out, or...

Connie Zack: He did over time. My brother, unfortunately, had quite a few. I mean, my brother was really sick, so he wasn't like he could do it all, you know, at once.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Mm-hmm, I see, yeah.

Connie Zack: Right, it was a process. But most importantly is, he started infrared therapy via a sauna, there was only one available, and it took a lot of time. However, for the very first time in his life since he started becoming sick, he noticed that he was feeling different, and he started feeling a little bit better. And slowly but surely, it seemed like forever, but I remember when he was like: "You've got to come over and check this thing out," like, "It's amazing." And he was able to get out of bed. I mean, that sounds so simple, but he was... You know, it's a big deal. And he was able to walk a little bit, and then over time, he cured himself by sweating out all the mercury.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: So, was this a scenario where he had the sauna in his home or where he was living?

Connie Zack: He did, he did, he did. I mean, poor thing, he had no money because he had spent all of his money trying to cure himself. He went to Mexico, he went abroad, he went everywhere to try and find a solution. And it was right there in St. Louis, as far as the dentist. And then he purchased an infrared sauna that had some coils, and sat in there just a couple of minutes a day, and changed his life. And so, I was also in St. Louis working for P&G on the pharmaceutical side, as well as my then-boyfriend, who is now my husband, who was also working for P&G. And we noticed the big difference it made on my brother's life, and I decided to help my brother kind of get started, of sharing his story, and the rest is really history. And what I was-

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: So is he involved with you now still, or is he-

Connie Zack: No, no.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: He's off doing his own thing? Yeah.

Connie Zack: Correct, he's an artist, and he's a great artist, and that's his passion. But he did want to share his story because it made such a big difference. And nobody had ever heard of infrared, and I started doing research when I was at P&G in the medical libraries, and found there was great data. Even back then, 25 years ago, there was great data from Asia talking-, especially in the cardiovascular part of the body, showing how it really helps increase blood flow and increase circulation in some really impressive studies. And I thought: "Wait a second, I'm working in the cardiovascular department at P&G in the pharma, trying to develop blood pressure medications with not a lot of success due to side effects."

We were lowering blood pressure, but I mean, the side effects were just horrific. And then I'm like: "Wait a second, there's something here." And so, I thought: "If somebody could do more research and build a product that was more efficient, more effective and share all the data science in the United States, we could really help to transform lives."

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: So, just so that... Yeah, that's an interesting story. So, just so the audience understands that there've really been kind of two lines of research in sauna usage, historically. One was really kind of out of Finland and Scandinavia, where they were putting people in dry saunas and then noticing significant impacts in terms of decreased all-cause mortality, and dementia, and cardiovascular disease, and things like that. And then, kind of in parallel with that, there was research with infrared sauna out of Japan, where they were looking at the use of infrared sauna. And it was chronic use in Scandinavia, where people were using it between one and four days a week over a number of years, they were followed for 20 years.

In Scandinavia, just to put it in perspective, the infrared sauna studies were more in the order of weeks. So, they were using it for three weeks, six weeks, eight weeks, that kind of thing, and they were picking... There are studies that I've read, and you may know more, were looking at people with angina, or congestive heart failure, or people that had blockages in their legs that were causing pain in the legs when they would walk from lack of blood flow, something called claudication. And they were reporting significant improvements in people's ability to walk, decreased shortness of breath, and decreased chest pain. And this was really just after a few weeks of treatment, and it was really quite remarkable data.

It really got my attention. And so, in your own minds, you're reading these studies, your brother's using infrared, and then what was your next step? You just up and quit, or what actually happened? How did you get there?

Connie Zack: Well, almost, almost. So, my brother joined forces with another gentleman to continue to share his story, again, I was like coaching him. I mean, this is marketing, and pharma and medicine, like all of that, was what I was doing. And so, I was helping him, and then the gentleman that my brother joined with to try and develop a business plan that didn't work out is the short part of the story. And I really, really believed in the science that I was reading. And especially the thing that really caught my eye is, it's really hard... I mean, you know, you're a cardiologist. I mean, I was seeing it on the research and development side on the pharmaceutical, it's just really hard to do things like increase blood flow and change your arteries, and I mean, make significantly lower blood pressure without side effects with medication.

And so, I thought: "This is happening with a level of energy; you can do it at home and just sit there in the comfort of your own home. Why isn't anybody talking about this, why is this not incorporated?" And so, I was very passionate. It was because I saw it for myself and decided that my brother needed help. I believed in his story. I saw it for myself. I had a great job, but you know, I realized the world was bigger than pharma. And if I could help people be healthier without medication, then wow. I mean, then I felt I would have done something significant. And so, Aaron and I, Aaron is my husband and business partner, decided to leave P&G. Aaron left first because I was in the middle of a project, and I stayed on and did two jobs. And then once I finished up my project, I took a leave, and tested it out, and then decided to try it full-time, and then yeah.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Okay, so what did your-

Connie Zack: 25 years later…

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: So, you were interested in infrared, but what was the special thing that you were bringing into your research? Had you figured out that there was a better way to make a sauna, or that there were more options, or that the market didn't have what was needed, or what was your analysis of all that? And how did you kind of fill that niche?

Connie Zack: Yeah, that's a great question. So, it was that nobody knew... Even at a high, high level, right? I mean, I had all these things in my head of ‘more effective’, ‘more efficient’, ‘higher quality’. I mean, because the things that were on the market, they weren't pretty. There wasn't anything attractive about it. But really, above all of that was, nobody knows about the fact that infrared energy can help the heart be healthier. Because it really started with the heart, with all of the data. And I thought, like: "That's just crazy, that nobody knows." And so, I became very passionate about sharing that part and then simultaneously trying to figure out, ‘Okay, we need to change the cabin. Because the cabin, there are all sorts of problems with the wood.’

And I didn't like what was on the market, but we mortgaged our home, and we put all... We were all-in. So, at the time, we had to work with just a manufacturer that was already doing it, but at the same time, I was trying to figure out, and Aaron was trying to figure out, how can we develop our own scientific heater, like our own stuff where it's a higher emissivity, which means that you get the highest amount of infrared into the body to transform the cells and to provide the most effective output.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: And without giving away any proprietary information, what did you figure out about that? Is it a function of where the heaters are placed, or what the energy density is, or what kinds of things did you figure out there?

Connie Zack: Yeah, it's a function of the materials that are used to develop the heaters in order for the heaters to be as cool as possible. What was happening 25 years ago is essential; there was just a lot of... I use the word space heaters because people understand what a space heater is, you know?

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Right.

Connie Zack: And it was those types of heaters that were put inside wooden cabins that were warming the air. But the surface temperature of the heater was so hot that you weren't getting as much of the far infrared, to be specific at the time, because that's what we first studied, that part of the wavelength. You weren't getting enough far infrared to really transform the body, you were still sweating, and any sweatage, you mentioned with the Scandinavian study, I mean, all of that, is good. But I was looking for the detox; I was looking for the deep. I was looking for the comfort too, so you could stay in there longer. And so, we just started doing research on materials, and how can you get that surface temperature as low as possible so you can get the right frequency into the body? So, a lot of time on a lot of-

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: So, keeping the heater cooler enables you to have a higher density of far infrared, is that kind of what you're saying? Okay.

Connie Zack: Correct, correct. And then we patented the... When we figured it out how to do it, then we patented the emissivity. And so, that's really helped propel our business over the years because people can't come in and have a more effective heater if that makes sense.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Yep. Okay, interesting. So, let's talk a little bit about infrared; there's a spectrum of infrared, right? There's near, mid, and far infrared. Do you want to talk us through a little bit about that, and which frequencies you're using, and how you might blend those together if you're doing that, and what the rationale is behind all that? So, maybe start with frequency, tell us a little more about that.

Connie Zack: Yeah, so I'll start with far because that's how we started as a company. And far is the-

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: It's the most deeply penetrating, basically, it's-

Connie Zack: Yeah, correct, it's absorbed to the water molecules in your body. The water molecules receive the energy, they transform, they start moving and vibrating and changing, changing structure and changing. And so, then when you're sweating, you're getting that deeper sweat, and there's been studies on measuring sweat and showing the output of toxic elements from far infrared. So, we started with that. Far is labeled far because it's the farthest from visible light. It's also the coolest surface temperature, not the air temperature, so that can be a little confusing, and I apologize for that. Because everything is measured by the surface temperature of the heater, not the air temperature. And-

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Right. It's the longest wavelength, if I'm not mistaken?

Connie Zack: Yes, correct.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Yeah, so it's a longer, slower... It's kind of like the bass notes, if you will, coming out of your speaker, yeah. So, it has more penetrating power, just like you hear the bass... You know, in college, you heard the bass from the people in the room next door but not the treble, right? So, that low, slow frequency has deeper penetrating power, and that's kind of the beauty of far infrared. The other interesting thing when I get into a far infrared sauna is that you don't sweat initially, right? It's coming in, the energy's coming in, but you're not sweating. Like you can sit in there, for me anyway, I can sit in there 15 minutes, and I haven't broken a sweat. But then you kind of hit this, I call it kind of the ‘tipping point’ or the ‘critical point’ where all of a sudden there's enough internal energy where all of a sudden, you can't stop sweating. I mean, like it's pouring out of you, right? And even after you get out of the sauna, it's still pouring out of you. So, that's an interesting [inaudible 00:16:13].

Connie Zack: I call it the tipping point as well, Dr. Gladden, that's exactly... You know, and I remember when we first started the company, and people would say that: "I'm not sweating." And I'm like: "Just stay in there."

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: That's right.

Connie Zack: "Keep, keep doing it, and keep doing it."

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: That's right.

Connie Zack: And I mean, it took me... Myself, it took me probably four or five sessions at the very, very, very beginning to really have a good sweat. And then, like you said, I couldn't stop, and I was just drenched. And the sweat consistency, the texture is different than when I go for a run or do other types of cardiovascular exercise, so it-

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: It's like a deeper sweat, right? Like it's-

Connie Zack: Yeah, mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: ... more profound, cleansing somehow. Yeah, I would agree with that as well. So, that's far infrared, so then talk to us about mid-infrared and near-infrared. Give us some information on that.

Connie Zack: Yeah, so mid, going one direction to the left, towards the... Ultimately, it's visible light, and there's the-

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Yeah, little shorter wavelengths.

Connie Zack: Little shorter wavelength, and the surface temperature is hotter. So, it's going to be a shorter wavelength, and it's really great for inflammation, reducing inflammation, and the joint and tissues. We've done a study on that. And then near, going the farthest over is the shortest wavelength and the closest to visible light. And it gets so hot that in order to deliver the right frequency, you have to convert the heat into LEDs. And so, that was something that we brought to the market, I don't know what we're looking at, what, 15 years ago now? Gosh, it's crazy. So, we deliver LEDs and the infrared with the right frequency. When I say ‘right frequency’, the frequency that has the deepest penetration beneath the skin to help give energy, to help cell turnover, to help wound healing, all these great, glorious benefits that near-infrared provides.

That's what's so special about the three different wavelengths is each one works with your body and your cells in different ways. So, is one good enough? Yeah, it absolutely can be, depending on what you're looking for, you know? If you were just only looking for detox, for example, far is good enough. I mean, we know for sure that it helps to detox the body, it increases your core temperature, and it removes impurities. But if you want to have kind of the whole body approach and you want the maximum benefit, then having three separate wavelengths operating independently, which is something unique and special that Sunlighten does that nobody else does, is we separate each wavelength out via different venues, different ways to do that in one of our saunas, so that you can adjust each wavelength separately.

And then we pulled them all together in sort of some programs that are based on science, and to make it easy so that somebody doesn't have to think: "Oh, today I want anti-aging benefits. What do I do?" Or, "Today I want to detox," or, "Today I want cardio." But we have all the programs, and you just press the button.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Okay. So, really, you're kind of... It's like a mixing board in a sound studio, where you're mixing the amount of treble, versus the amount of midrange, versus the amount of bass. And then, depending on what sound you're going for, what outcome you're looking for, you're basically mixing the sound level. And so, you have programs to where it's not just presets to one output, like every time you get in the sauna, you're going to get the same amount of near, mid, and far. You can actually adjust it into picking what you want to do. So, that's very cool. Now, is that kind of a patented technology that you have also with some of your stuff? Yeah.

Connie Zack: We have a patent on delivering two or more wavelengths in a sauna, mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Okay, okay, nice. And then just to give us a feel for that, so let's say it's a third, a third, a third, is kind of... You know, you're kind of at the midpoint on your soundboard, let's say, right? On your mixer. How much deviation do you go? Do you drop the near-infrared way down to like it's only 10% of the energy coming in, or does it go up to 90? What's the range between these things?

Connie Zack: Yeah, that's a great question. It depends on the desired outcome, so for example, I will talk about anti-aging, which is our skin program. On that program, the near-infrared is dialed up really high the entire time. Mid-infrared isn't even on, because that wavelength is shorter and it's hotter, and you really, ideally, for the best skin turnover, for the best cellular regeneration, for the best what I call ‘glow from the inside out’, which is the far infrared, you don't need mid-infrared. But when you combine far and near together, it's a beautiful program. It's a different experience, so you're not going to walk in there and have this burst of heat. But your skin is going to feel and look fantastic when you're done.

So, that's one example of how we titrate and adjust the different wavelengths. And we do place the information on each program; there's a control panel and a tablet that is inside the sauna that you can see. And so, it will say on there what's going on, in case you want to understand.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Okay, yeah. So, you can see this program, I'm going to be getting this much far, this much mid, this much near, right? So-

Connie Zack: Right.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: ... you can kind of get a visual of it. Yeah, nice. And then tell us a little bit about data that you've collected using some of these programs. How are you collecting data, what are you measuring, and what are you seeing?

Connie Zack: We're in the process of doing that right now. So, I will do a to-be-determined and share some of the actual data from the programs on some new things that are coming out later. I will tell you that we get a lot of people's blood work, like they will send us their reports from their doctor on sharing their changes in their triglycerides, changes in cholesterol, changes in HDL, LDLs, weight loss, and toxin removal. I mean, the list goes on and on. So, we get a lot of that data anecdotally from a session, but we are working on getting specific to the program. But that's coming soon.

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It's interesting, there are some nice measures of vascular health that can be done too, so it would be interesting to talk with you about kind of what you're measuring to be able to demonstrate the efficacy of the programs. So, that would be pretty interesting too. With your saunas, now you make these in different sizes. Is that correct, in terms of-

Connie Zack: Correct.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: ... it can be a single person, which is kind of like a phone booth, I think, or something close to that. Or, we'll call it a Superman booth. And then up to, there's a number of people that can get in there. Can you give us an idea of the range there, and also, I've seen in some data that even though you can put in a four-person sauna, actually, you get sort of the most efficient sauna experience if you're in a single-person sauna. Is that true for your equipment too? Or, just kind of walk us through that, sizing, how that plays a role.

Connie Zack: I wouldn't go that far and say the size makes a big, huge difference in the results for one particular person. There is a difference in the experience, depending on that. So, as far as the range, we have an extensive range. And I mean, our goal at Sunlighten is access. And we want people... And we started this because of what I told you, awareness, right?

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Mm-hmm.

Connie Zack: To make sure that people are aware. And then, over the years, we want to make sure that we develop products that are accessible, that people can own and have in the comfort of their own home. Because if they can't have it and they can't use it, then they can't get the benefit. So, we have a wide, wide range, starting from the Solo, which is a one-person lie-down unit. I love that product so much, out of our whole range, in fact, it is the oldest model, meaning that it's been around the longest. We've made adaptations over the years, but I love it so much for many, many reasons, which is a separate podcast. But-

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: It's a lie-down unit, so it's almost like lying in a tanning bed kind of thing, or your face is in it, or your face is out of it, or-

Connie Zack: Your face is out, it's telescopic by design. So, the lower dome, when you're finished, goes into the upper dome. So, when you get in, you expand the upper dome and pull it up to your neck. And so, your head is out, and there's heating panels all the way around you, including on your feet. And actually, the Sunlighten Solo was our inspiration for creating our wooden cabins the way we've designed them because we did a study in 2005 with it. We were getting all these just amazing results that were different than our wooden cabins, and so we're like: "Huh, what's going on here?" So, then we changed our wood cabins to mimic the exact same experience as the Solo with the same heaters, same design as far as there's a foot heater, then there's heaters around you, so like on the wooden cabin on your walls.

And then we also have a Sunlighten SoloPad, that has four heaters underneath you. So, you're getting nine heaters in the Sunlighten Solo system completely surrounding you. And again, the heaters, those are the ones that I was talking about earlier that are patented, that have the highest amount of far infrared possible. So, that's the-

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: So, how do you get the... And I can imagine you're sweating inside this thing, it's almost like you're sweating in a sleeping bag now. How do you clean that thing?

Connie Zack: Yeah. Well, different than a sleeping bag. Like, you're not actually touching.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Okay, but the sweat's going to pour off you and hit something, right?

Connie Zack: Yeah. So, what you do is you're on top of... So, the Sunlighten SoloPad has, let's call it, a ‘mattress cover’, for lack of a better word. It's a cover that has our proprietary CELLIANT technology, which has... Those are infrared fibers, it's super-absorbent, antibacterial, and antimicrobial. The sweat is going to go a lot of it on that, and then you can also... We have body wraps that are made with the same material that you can wear if you would like, that helps to absorb the sweat with the same type of fibers. And then what I always do is have like a hand towel with the same fibers to help wipe by face. Because even though your face is out, my face sweats so much. I mean, I'm drenched when I am finished with one of those sessions.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: And how many minutes are you in there, a session?

Connie Zack: 40 minutes for me.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: 40?

Connie Zack: 40 minutes for me, that's perfect for me. I find my zone, my tipping point zone is probably... Well, now it's probably more like at minute 10 or 12. But if I haven't used my sauna in a bit, if I travel, like I just was on a trip, and then I come back, then it's usually like 15 minutes, 15, or sometimes even 20. And then bam, at that tipping point, man, I just start to unload, and I just don't want to get out because it's such a great feeling. And the energy that you get afterwards, the purge, just the lightness, the levity that you feel, the mental clarity is amazing.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Nice.

Connie Zack: Yeah. So then, as far as the rest of the range, I didn't answer that question. Then there's, we have four different product categories. We have far infrared with the Solo, we have Signature, which is far infrared, and Amplify, which has a blend of the wavelengths for those individuals that want a little bit of a hotter experience. And then, we have mPulse, that has each wavelength delivered separately, independently, where you could max out near, max out mid, and max out far.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: I see, okay, got it. So, the Solo is just far infrared? Okay, so it's really a detox unit, so to speak. And then-

Connie Zack: Yes.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: ... okay, so you have one of your lines that really does the mixing of the three different wavelengths, if you will. Is that what I'm hearing, is that correct?

Connie Zack: Yes, but we have two. We have two that you can get all three, it's just the way you get all three is completely different. So, Amplify is a unit where you have far infrared behind you, and then you have these heaters that blend the three wavelengths together. So, they're not separate and independent, they're blended together in front of you. And that wavelength, the energy that's coming from those, is hotter. So, it's going to be a hotter experience, you're still getting great benefits, but it's for that individual. We have a lot of Sunlighten customers that want to walk in and feel that boost-

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Feel the heat? Yeah, mm-hmm.

Connie Zack: ... of heat. And so, that's what hits it for them. And then mPulse is like... Personally, when I use my mPulse, I get in whenever. Like I'll turn it on, and I can get in in five minutes, 10 minutes. I don't worry at all about that boost of heat because it's not what it's designed for. And for me, it's all about which program am I going to use today, and then do some habit stacking while I'm in there, and start to do multiple things so that I can be super efficient and get my other things done that I want to get done, like meditation.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Yeah, get some work done, or some meditation, or some reflection, or whatever while you're-

Connie Zack: Reflection, intention, I do a lot of stretching, deep breathing, I'll do yoga poses, yeah.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Mm-hmm. So, these are big enough to be able to do all that stuff in. Does anybody put a stationary bike in there or anything?

Connie Zack: Oh, no, no, no.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Okay, okay. So-

Connie Zack: But cardiovascular is also... Sorry, I just thought about... Because the Solo, there are benefits to far infrared for... Remember, like when everything started, it was all far infrared. So, it's not just detox, you're still like... If you're looking for a heart-healthy product to help increase blood flow, increase circulation, help you have a healthy heart, we did a study in 2005 with the Solo that delivered a significant reduction in blood pressure that was statistically significant. So-

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Nice.

Connie Zack: Yeah, so that's a big deal, and that actually was just a Solo by itself. And we've expanded and added the SoloPad, which makes it much more effective.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Mm-hmm. Okay, fascinating. So, when you're working on this stuff, and you're thinking about doing research, are you partnering with universities or partnering with different clinicians to collect data, or how are you organizing some of this stuff?

Connie Zack: So, multiple ways. When we did the UMKC, that was, University of Missouri-Kansas City, they did that on their own; we just provided the product. It was a double-blind, placebo-controlled, randomized trial, and so we provided the placebo and the Sunlighten Solo. We provided the venue, but they did all... You know, we didn't know which one-

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Right, they ran the... Yeah, they got the equipment and-

Connie Zack: ... was the Sunlighten Solo group, and which one was the other group. They-

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Yeah, they designed and ran a trial, yep. I gotcha. So, [inaudible 00:34:05]-

Connie Zack: Right. And then we worked with medical advisors as well, just working... Like we worked with doctors regarding depression, we worked with doctors regarding sleep. I mean, all sorts of different conditions, and I learned from people like yourself who are experts in your field. I mean, that's really the way we built the business, is learning, asking questions, seeking to understand, like: "How can we do this better, what are we missing?"

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Mm-hmm, yeah. No, absolutely. You know, you were talking about some sessions for 40 minutes and that kind of thing. Is there a range of time that people spend in these saunas, depending on which brand or which model they purchase, and things like that? Do you want to walk us through that a little bit?

Connie Zack: Yes, absolutely. Definitely, it's better to do a little versus being like a perfectionist about not getting in unless you can do 40. So, that's my number one tip I can tell anybody. I can't emphasize that enough because so many people avoid doing exercise, or sauna, or whatever because they don't have in their mind that complete timeframe to do it. And with the sauna, even 10 minutes is fantastic. In fact, while we're on that topic, people that do have specific conditions such as heavy metal toxicity, or chronic fatigue, or mold toxicity, or Lyme disease, or things where they are already... Their immunity is down like they're already not feeling great, it's best to start slow, you know? Five, 10 minutes, see-

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Yeah.

Connie Zack: ... how you feel. Drink a ton of water before, during, and after, and then analyze your body, and then try the same next time, or maybe a minute more. So, just work up to it, you know?

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Yep.

Connie Zack: If you're super, you're healthy, and everything is great, then it's not an issue. But don't go in there if you have conditions for 40 minutes like I do, that's not a good idea. So, anywhere from 10, I mean even if you're really, really compromised, five minutes, and then just add on, you know?

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Yeah.

Connie Zack: With the goal of getting to 40, I think is a good goal. But it could take you a year, and that's completely fine.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: I think there's a lot of wisdom in what you're saying because when people are trying to detox, in particular, and we live in such a toxic environment, as these toxins are moving, right, they can actually make you feel worse, initially, before you feel better. And so, you kind of have to... And while we like saunas because it's not putting a big load on the kidneys or the liver per se, you're actually moving them out through the skin, it's still you're moving these toxins around in your body, and they can still make you feel poorly. So, kind of acclimating to it, maybe taking some glutathione, maybe taking some antioxidants, certainly hydrating well, things like that, replacing some of the minerals that you're losing, all become very important in the whole process.

So, you do want to take it kind of slow. You can overdo it, and then you won't feel well. And then the next thing you know is you won't want to do it, but that's not really how it works. That's kind of like: "I'm going to go to the gym," right? So, you do a big workout, and you can't walk for a week. So, you've got to be a little careful about it, so...

Connie Zack: That's exactly right; good analogy.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: So, tell us a little bit about, do people really get their core temperatures up in these saunas?

Connie Zack: Yeah, yeah. We did a core temperature study, oh gosh, forever ago, again with the Solo, without the Pad, and in 30 minutes, increased the body's core temperature up to three degrees. And the great thing about that is there are so many benefits that come with consistently increasing your core temperature, and you're doing it by just sitting, or lying down, or just being comfortable, which is fantastic. Because there are so many people who can't exercise, for example, you know?

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Right.

Connie Zack: Like I'm a big exercise, you know-

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Yeah, yeah, me too.

Connie Zack: ... fanatic. But yeah, but I'm able to do it, and I know I'm blessed, and I'm lucky. I know that there are so many people that can't do it, and you can't convince somebody who can't exercise to go exercise, you know?

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Mm-hmm.

Connie Zack: But somebody who can't exercise can sit inside or lie down inside a Sunlighten sauna for sure.

Dr. Jeffrey Gladden: Yeah, there are a lot of benefits to raising the core temp. It's actually raising core temp is a nice thing for treating cancer. Also, cancer cells don't like increased body temperature. So, I'm not advocating people use this as a cancer therapy, but that is kind of a known fact. And then there's a term called ‘emissivity’. Do you want to talk to us about that in terms of-